As cities grow in size and power, local governments are increasingly shaping their own diplomatic agendas independent from national governments. New York City's Commissioner for International Affairs Penny Abeywardena and Montréal's Director of International Relations Henri-Paul Normandin join Deep Dish to discuss the rise of city diplomacy.
Both Abeywardena and Normandin speak at the 2019 Pritzker Forum on Global Cities, June 5-7, in Chicago. Details here.
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Brian Hanson: This is Deep Dish on Global Affairs going beyond the headlines on critical global issues. I'm Brian Hanson. You may not know it, but we are present at the creation of a major change taking place in diplomacy, but it's not being led by the US State Department. It's not being led by foreign ministries around the world. It's happening in city hall, or perhaps more accurately, it's happening in city halls around the world. The cities have grown in size and power, as technology and globalization have lowered the cost of connecting across distances, cities have increasingly set out to shape their own diplomatic agendas in ways some argue have the potential to transform global politics. I'm joined today by two leading practitioners of this new wave of global diplomacy to explain how it works. I have with me Penny Abeywardena, who is the New York City's commissioner for International Affairs. She was previously director of Girls and Women Integration at the Clinton Global Initiative, and she is the author of a new blog posted on the council's website titled “New York City's Global Experience Builds the Case for City Diplomacy.” Welcome, Penny. It's great to have you on Deep Dish.
Penny Abeywardena: Thank you. It's exciting to be on.
Brian Hanson: Also, with us is Henri-Paul Normandin, who is the director of International Relations for the city of Montreal in Quebec, Canada. He was previously a Canadian ambassador to Haiti and the United Nations, as well. Welcome, Henri-Paul. It's great to have you here too.
Henri-Paul Normandin: Hello Brian, a pleasure to join you.
Brian Hanson: I do want to add that today's discussion is a little bit of a preview of the 2019 Pritzker Forum on Global Cities that the Council is hosting in Chicago. Both Penny and Henri-Paul will be on the agenda there. This is an annual event that really probes the role of cities as actors in addressing important global issues. There's more information on the Pritzker Forum on our website, thechicagocouncil.org. Now, to jump into the conversation, Penny, I want to start with you, and I want to ask you what is a seemingly simple question. What is city diplomacy? I know we're talking about a whole lot more than just simply sister cities' relationships, but what is this thing we call city diplomacy?
Penny Abeywardena: Yes, and I have to say sister cities is something that we've been doing for many years, and one of the distinctions in terms of when I joined the mayor back in 2014 is what does it look like for cities to connect on a substantive level? What does it look like for us to exchange best practices on policy? City diplomacy for New York City has really been creating a platform for us to talk about what's working in New York City and showing the leadership of New York City on issues related to climate and immigration, and I think the reason city diplomacy right now is more important than ever. We have national governments, not only here in the US but around the world that are abdicating their responsibility on multilateral agreements. The city diplomacy is really an engagement of cities showing the work that they're doing on behalf of their citizens, and how do we essentially promote those agendas beyond borders.
Brian Hanson: Terrific and very succinct. Henri-Paul, you have spent an entire career in diplomacy both doing traditional national diplomacy and now doing city diplomacy. What do you see as the distinctions and how would you like to build on Penny's really succinct definition?
Henri-Paul Normandin: Well, let's go back to the basics of what diplomacy is then. Interestingly enough, there's not a universally accepted definition of diplomacy, but my own is essentially the following. It's the art of pursuing your interests and objectives and influencing the decisions and behaviors of others. That applies to a national government, but it can also apply to a city government. In a nutshell, in terms of our interests and objectives in a city, they are many, but more and more, the quality of life of our citizens is dependent on things that are happening globally. Climate change is the most obvious example. In Montreal and in any city, we suffer from the impact of climate change, but if we want to be effective at addressing climate change, how it impacts people in Montreal, then we cannot act simply in Montreal. We have to act globally. That is why we engaged more and more on global issues. You referred to the twinning of cities. This is still a tool that is being used, but cities have gone much beyond that now, and we're more and more active on global issues.
Brian Hanson: I know that both of you have been actively involved in this. In the abstract, we're used to cities thinking about things like sanitation and streets and all. Can you give us some examples of what this city diplomacy looks like? What's an issue that you all engage? You've provided a couple of examples, but if you could just build out how do you go about doing this? What's an example of this? Either one of you.
Penny Abeywardena: Sure. I could jump in. I have to say sanitation and clean streets are very important to us here in New York City. What we have decided to do in terms of how we've framed our city diplomacy has been specifically through the Sustainable Development Goals. In 2015, Mayor de Blasio on Earth Day launched OneNYC, which is our development agenda that's looking at sustainability and resiliency in New York City through a strong equity lens. It's also 2015 was the year that the global community came together and agreed to the 17 Sustainable Development Goals. What my office did was we mapped our OneNYC visions to the SDG targets, and we had synergies I think because of our strong equity lens in all of the Sustainable Development Goals. What we were able to do is create this program called Global Vision Urban Action, where we created a platform where we can talk about how does New York City manage our waste, how do we clean our streets or keep them safe in terms of lowering pedestrian deaths. The thing is we're doing these policies on issues that impact our everyday citizens, but there's an opportunity to learn and exchange best practices from cities and states around the world. One of the ways that the York City wanted to show up is that we're as large if not larger than 141 countries. We get to be host to the United Nations. But we're also not just Manhattan. We have structural inequities throughout our five boroughs, and so we show up with the humility to learn from other countries. That was our original engagement in 2015 and over the last few years has really been through this lens of the Sustainable Development Goals. It's language and a common framework that allows us to connect with our fellow colleagues in waste management in Nairobi or Sao Paulo. That has been extremely useful over the last few years.
Brian Hanson: Henri-Paul, what's an example you'd say?
Henri-Paul Normandin: I take the example of technology. Technology affects us in many ways including in new forms of the economy like Airbnb and Uber and so on. There are also issues of human rights, which pop up. It's a challenge for cities to see how do we eventually regulate all of this activity, how do we best use technology? It's a little bit difficult for a city alone to go at it. What we've seen in the last few months actually is a number of cities getting together to discuss those issues on technology, how it affects us, how it affects the economy, how it affects our human rights. We've developed a network and some initiatives including with New York, with Amsterdam and others. We developed a platform called Cities for Digital Rights. We're trying to see how each of us can best cope with those new technologies and others both to serve our citizens and also to protect them when they need to be protected.
Brian Hanson: That's interesting. Both the examples you cited really fall into a category of cities that are facing similar challenges around the world being driven by whatever technology or globalization and cities coming together to learn from one another to exchange ideas in order to address problems that everyone is facing or cities are simultaneously facing. There's another set of actions that you all referred to in the opening of city diplomacy, and that is cities working together in order to try to affect not only what happens within their borders but trying to affect global and national policies that have an impact on those cities. I know that you all both just got back from Tokyo and for a meeting of the so called U20, the Urban 20, which is set up in parallel to the G20, the G20 being that every six months leaders of of these 20 large and important nations come together in order to work on important global problems. Can you talk a little bit about how cities are also coming together to try to influence global global debates and global decisions that have an impact on your cities as well?
Penny Abeywardena: Absolutely. I mean, I'm going to reflect on the Paris Climate Accord. Soon after the Trump administration came into power, they pulled the US out of the Paris Climate Accord. New York City within 24 hours signed an executive order where we committed ourselves directly to that. We led a coalition through the US Conference of Mayors. There are over 400 US cities that have committed directly to it. This is a moment in which cities in certain countries, and I'm going to speak for us here in the US, have to step up, and these coalitions become very important when it's on issues like climate change that go well beyond our borders. For New York City, our participation in the U20 and other initiatives that are are these city coalitions are really important because we need to show that we have a collective voice. We not only did this with the Paris Climate Accord, but we also did this with the Global Compact on Migration, which was a focus of the United Nations last year. Of course, the US government didn't participate. We know the importance of what it means to have a diverse and inclusive community, and we have a number of different policy issues that we think are very important in this larger migration conversation. We not only participated during the Global Compact negotiation, where we led a coalition of 50 cities. I think it's been not only useful and effective because clearly it's having that impact on our jobs, but it's necessary right now.
Henri-Paul Normandin: I would say this is part of a broader movement that we call a seat at the global table, which started in 2016 in Quito around the UN Habitat Conference. We're basically cities. We're trying to get a seat in an innovative way. That doesn't mean sitting in the UN as a nation state of course, so it's different, but the U20 is a very good example. I'll give you another example. The G7, Canada hosted the G7 last year. For the first time ever, mayors addressed the G7 seven forum through an open letter saying, basically, these are the issues that we would like to work with you on. The G7, now the G20, and there will be others. Migration as Penny mentioned is a very good case in point. Back 18 months ago, basically, the cities were not at the table of discussion on the Global Compact on Migration and Refugees. We decided to get into it, and we did so successfully in the negotiations. We influenced the content of the global contact. At the end of the process, actually, we were present in Marrakesh. Mayor Plante of Montreal presented the position of cities in front of the UN to say we're supportive of the Global Compact, and this is what we will do and this is what we hope that you will do as well. It's really part of a broader movement. I would like to highlight actually that this is very important, is that for cities, we're active. We do two things. We act on those global issues, and we also influence the global agenda. We've seen it in climate change. We've seen it in migration. I think that the next frontier, the next theme for cities, which is coming up is that of biodiversity. We talk a lot about climate change, and that's absolutely relevant, but relatively, few people talk about biodiversity, yet there is the COP15 of biodiversity next year, at the end of next year. There is hardly a political momentum around. Well, cities, Montreal and a number of other cities and other organization that's called the palais of cities. We decided to get together, and we're gonna play a role on the discussions and on the agenda of biodiversity just like cities did with climate change and migration now.
Brian Hanson: Let me pick up on that because that's a really interesting issue. I wouldn't have thought of that as a city's issue. Usually, biodiversity in which we think about the extinction of species of various kinds, plants, and animals, and the planet. Oftentimes, we think about cities as separate from or their own particular biospheres. Why is this such a compelling and important issue for cities?
Henri-Paul Normandin: Well, biodiversity is affected by human activity. Where do most humans live? In cities, of course. We're at 60 percent and more and more every decade, so we've got be conscious of the impact of what we do in cities on biodiversity. Urban sprawl is a good example of the negative impact we can have on biodiversity. Conversely, as we destroy biodiversity, it also has an impact on our quality of life in cities. I think of natural disasters. For example, we've been affected by floods in eastern Canada lately. It's partly because we destroyed some of our coastal areas that don't protect us anymore. That's a very concrete example of what's happening in a city. Biodiversity matters for quality of life in a city, but it's also a broader global issue of course where everybody has to act, cities, national governments, civil society and so on. I agree with you that it's not obvious at first sight, but when you stop and think about it, there is a role for us to play.
Penny Abeywardena: Absolutely, New York City has over 500 miles of coastline. We had to deal with the aftermath of superstorm Sandy. That's really where OneNYC came from when we were looking at the future sustainability and resiliency of New York City. I think this is where, again, the Sustainable Development Goals become very important. One of the things that we do and not only do we partner with other cities and exchange best practices and bring that SDG framework to our colleagues in different city agencies, because the city diplomacy can't be just in one office. It can't be in the International Fffairs team. It has to be something that everybody throughout the city understands, not only those employed by city government, but I think the everyday New Yorker. One of the ways we do that is through a program called New York City Junior Ambassadors. We focus on the seventh to eighth grade group, which is the 12 to 13-year-old. What we do is we invite educators to integrate the SDGs into their curriculum. There's a number of different aspects to this program, but at the end of the day, these young people are learning about these issues related to biodiversity or climate action or education from the global lens through the SDGs. But then they have to do something in their community, and so when you think about something like biodiversity, I think about SDG 14, Life Underwater. How do you take something that sounds so wonky and boring to 12 and 13 year olds and get them to do something in their community? What we've seen is that we have ambassadors from the South Bronx, and their focus is SDG 14, life under water. What they're doing is cleaning up and thinking about the long term sustainability of the South Bronx River, which they walk by every single day to get to school, and is one of the dirtiest waterways in New York City. That's how you're taking these really broad wonky, really important topics but bringing it into the homes of people that need to do something about it. I mean, so what Henri-Paul just said, this is about the longevity of of our society and our communities. It can't just be government or a handful of people in government thinking about it. It actually needs to be our everyday citizens.
Brian Hanson: These examples are really striking to me because one of the arguments, one, here is in the city diplomacy discussions is that big global issues can be seen as very abstract and out there somewhere. Your examples are really drawing the connections between everyday lives of people. One of the things that is true about city governments is there tend to be closer to their populations than national governments that are governing over a wide range of types of communities and a wider sense of geography. One of the things that you bring to bear is that close connection, closer connection with the city, with people in the city and making these issues real. I want to build on this a little bit and ask you about what are the sources of city power? I mean, we're talking about political decisions here that affect people's lives and there are always interests involved. I loved the phrase earlier in the conversation about city diplomacy is cities pursuing their interests and the interests of those people who are residents in the cities. Why do cities bring to bear politically in order to exert power in shaping these decisions and actions?
Penny Abeywardena: I mean, I think democracy. We bring in voters. I think, there's a number of different ways I think that we can exert power. I mean, from a New York City perspective, thinking about what the conversation we were just having around superstorm Sandy and what happened after, there's a pretty direct correlation between that event and the behavior of the large fossil fuel companies. What Mayor de Blasio has done is partner with Mayor Sadiq Khan from London, and there is an effort that's called the Global Divestment Network to divest pension fund dollars. New York City's done that with about $4 billion out of the big fossil fuel companies and reinvesting those dollars into clean energy companies. I think that that kind of... We have to use power where we have it. There is the influence that we can do with a big city like New York City, and then the money that we have around our pension funds, but also the way that we empower our citizens to know about these issues and realize that we also need to have the national government that reflects the issues that we care about, whether it's on immigration or climate change and encourage them to vote. It's, I think, a holistic way of approaching the way that communities can connect. One other thing that New York City has done is obviously, we're host in the United Nations and we have our 193 permanent missions. We believe very strongly in the work of the UN and the role of cities in participating in that conversation. We talked about the Paris Climate Accord. We talked about the Global Compact on Migration, but also, when you think about the fact that the community, the development community that gets together at the UN, they're thinking about it through the framework of the SDGs. A really important moment is every summer during the high level political forum, national governments are invited to submit voluntary national reviews. This is where their countries are in terms of achieving the SDGs. We saw an incredible opportunity. City voices had been missing from this, and we last year worked with the UN. They were very supportive of this. We proposed what if New York City did a voluntary local review. We made that up, but it was... We mapped what voluntary national reviews were. What's great is that there isn't a standard for countries submitting this. There is right now quite a lot of flexibility in how you can do this reporting. That's an opportunity for cities to insert themselves into this conversation, and so we submitted a voluntary local review as to where we were achieving the SDGs, but also where our challenges are. Again, this is a tool for transparency. This is an opportunity for New York City to show Montreal, this is what we're doing well, and this is where we're having some issues, and can we exchange some best practices around that? To the point that Henri-Paul made, this is not about undermining or uspurping sovereign member state authority at the UN. This is just a larger recognition that everybody needs to be part of the conversation, and cities represent the majority of population around the world. We need to be part of this, and so the voluntary local review has been another opportunity for us to insert that power or influence or the recognition that our voices just need to be heard.
Henri-Paul Normandin: Well, I couldn't agree more. In cities, we are a government of proximity with the people. Brian, you were asking what are our assets. Of course, we have some jurisdiction over a number of issues. We have some resources, but maybe more importantly, we're a place for innovation, and also, we're a place for political leadership. What we do or do not do within our cities has a broader impact on our city limits. I'll come back to the example of migration. Migration is a global issue, of course, a global phenomenon, and it's mainly national governments which decide who's coming or who's not in a city... in a country, I'm sorry, but where do immigrants go? They go to cities. Once they are in cities, well, we got to take care of them. If we take good care of them, well, that makes for a better integration and better social cohesion and so on. If we fail at doing that, well, that will have negative repercussions, not only in our city but beyond that. I'll take another example. Another theme where you may be surprised that I raised this one, but issues of peace and security, of course, traditionally, that's an issue for national governments, but some dimensions of peace and security has to do with cities. Let's take the phenomenon of violence and radicalization. It's often in cities that you see acts of violence and even acts of terrorism. Sometimes, it's homegrown, but it's also influenced by global trends. In Montreal, we innovated that with the establishment of a center for the prevention of radicalization very well grounded in the community, so as we act to prevent radicalization, we actually contribute to peace and security not only within our city but within Canada. This was so innovative that actually we hosted the former secretary general of the UN Mr. Ban Ki-moon in Montreal in 2016. He came to visit that center because he recognized that that type of work done by cities matters also for that global issue, which is international peace and security.
Brian Hanson: That's a fascinating example. Both of you have really stressed just how many issues in which cities have a direct contribution to address these big global issues. One of the things that's come up from time to time in this conversation is the relationship to national governments. In the United States, being a federal system, we're used to a system in which there are competing sources of power, whether it's states or municipalities or the federal government. I'm wondering how you have found your relationship with the federal governments or with the national governments on these issues. A couple of times, you've pointed out where there have been differences of positions between national governments and what your cities and city leadership have been promoting. One of those issues that came up was of course climate change in the US. Another was the migration issue. I'm curious. How does this manifest itself, and how do you manage that potential conflict of interest when simply the two levels of government want different things?
Penny Abeywardena: It's very diplomatically.
Brian Hanson: That's why it's called city diplomacy.
Penny Abeywardena: We are exerting a lot of city diplomacy over here in New York City, Brian. Listen, New York City hosts the largest diplomatic corps in the world. We work very closely with the US mission to the UN and the State Department with not only our counselor corps but also our UN community. From an operational standpoint, we have a very solid working relationship, but when it comes to issues that range from gender equity and issues like parental leave to climate action, to how we celebrate and embrace and ensure that our immigrant communities thrive in New York City, it's almost antithetical to what is coming out of our federal government right now. I think what has been, I think, really extraordinary for me to experience over the last couple of years is the power of our federalist system. We have quite a decent amount of authority in terms of everything from the behavior of the NYPD to the kinds of policies, and, again, this divestment, this global divestment network that we were part of launching. There is quite a lot that can be done at the city level, and the de Blasio administration has really taken advantage of that to showcase what progressive policies can do in a city of 8.6 million and how government can work for its people in terms of addressing inequities. I think, I don't spend too much time thinking about the national government and being reactive to it. What I love about this administration is that we have from day one, from 2014, been proactive about thinking about how do we improve the lives of New Yorkers by tackling a whole range of issues that include everything from climate change to education, which was part of the reason the sustainable development goals have been very valuable is that all of these are global issues, and part of being successful is being open to ideas and being open to how we engage from a multilateral perspective. That's what we have been doing in New York City.
Henri-Paul Normandin: In terms of our relationship with the other levels of government, and for us, in our case, that's both the federal level and the provincial level, the equivalent of states in the US. Well, we start from the principle that as a city, we do what we think is right for our citizens, for Montrealers, but this being said, we work as much as we can with other levels of government, national, provincial on issues of common interest. It so happens that in the last few years, that relationship and that collaboration has been rather productive actually. There are some issues where we're not exactly on the same wavelength, where we may have different points of views, but by and large, the relationship is a productive one. Though the federal and the provincial government see rather positively our involvement only shows that are of interest to them. Of course, that dynamic may change over time, but our initial approach is to try to work together with them. Actually, back to the G7 and the U20, very significant to note that in the final communique of the U20, we essentially say, well, here are issues of importance for all of us, and we would like to work together with you on those issues going in the following direction. That's our approach. Again, there may be issues. There may be themes where we're not on the same wavelength, but the instinct is to try to work in a productive way.
Brian Hanson: Let's take us from the big political level down to the city political level, and to ask you about how to explain the city diplomacy efforts to local citizens. I know at the national level, we have debates about why are we involved in the world in these various ways. Oftentimes in cities, one hears the same thing Why is my mayor out at some event outside our borders? We've got real issues here in our city. How hard is it to build the constituents support within the steadies to really pursue this agenda? Is this something that's difficult to sell, and how do you go about doing that?
Penny Abeywardena: It's hard for me to gauge how hard it is. From my agency's perspective, historically, the city hadn't done much work around explaining to New Yorkers the value of having the UN being host to the largest diplomatic corps and that value that it brings to New York City. To a certain extent, New Yorkers just thought of the UN and thought of traffic in September. What we've done is approach it in a couple of different ways. I commissioned the first economic impact analysis of New York City hosting the UN, the first one in over 30 years. At the end of the day, while it is such a huge educational and cultural boon for New Yorkers, employees over 16,000 New Yorkers brings about $3.69 billion annually into New York City. It is economically a really wonderful thing for us to host, but again, this is where it becomes very important to try to bring home to everyday New Yorkers why thinking about climate change or human trafficking actually mattered to your lives. That's what we've done through our junior ambassador program. Again, this is not just for the young people, but it's also for the educators. It's for the school systems, the afterschool programs to realize that they're much more than just what's happening in their neighborhood. They're connected to a larger movement. I've said this, I think, now at this point, ad nauseum on this podcast, but again, this is where the SDGs become really useful as a framework and a common language for us to be able to bridge what's happening in our community in these issues to a larger context. I think everybody likes to feel like they're part of a larger movement but they need to feel what can they do here. That's what some of our programming allows is for that tangible, what's the next step? This is what you do in your neighborhood. It's hard for me to gauge the level of effectiveness at this moment, because again, this is only a couple of years old, but just anecdotally from parents and teachers and from these young people, it has worked better than most other programs because it's not only making the connection but these New Yorkers are actually doing something about them.
Henri-Paul Normandin: I'm going to say it is a bit of a challenge. The way to address that I think is twofold. One is to hammer the point that some of the issues that affect us are also global. Again, climate change is the obvious example. The other thing is some of the very concrete issues that we're addressing. I'll take the challenge of sustainable mobility, which is a challenge for many cities, but many cities have innovated and have interesting practices. When we say or when we demonstrate that by looking at the examples of other cities, we can bring to Montreal so many innovations with respect to the way we manage mobility. We introduced bicycle paths and things like that. This is very real for our citizens. When we say that if we travel abroad, it's partly to look at what others are doing so as to get the best practices. That can relate to citizens. Of course, conversely, some other cities also copy some of what we've been doing in Montreal, and that's quite fine. I would say that it's working on those two aspects, but it is a challenge. Actually, just to sidestep a bit, it's even seeing cities on the global stage, we've made a lot of progress, but we've come a long way. I'll give you a little anecdote. When I was serving Canada at the United Nations, the then mayor of Montreal came to the UN. I thought, Huh, that's interesting. What is he actually coming to do here? I had a meeting with them and that was quite fine, quite nice. At the time in a good old fashioned way, I thought, Well now, I'll go back with my real business. That was some 12 years ago and things have changed a lot. That paradigm has shifted. Now when mayors like Mayor Plante and others go to the UN, people see the cities as serious interlocutors. I think, we've got to change our image both vis-a-vis our citizens, but also vis-a-vis some of the other global fora. I think we've made some progress quite a bit actually in the last few years, but we still have some ways to go.
Penny Abeywardena: I think, it's an important point. This movement, Brian, as you said in the beginning, is really still quite new. Some people, especially with the voluntary local review, we have dozens of cities that are now signing up to do this, and the kind of feedback we're getting and some of the criticism you'd think we've been doing this for decades. This is less than a year old, and we're sort of still in the movement of building this and perfecting this and identifying how best to do it in the most effective way.
Henri-Paul Normandin: I would just nuance this a little bit, Penny. Actually, it's taken a momentum, a big momentum in the last few years, but cities getting together to try to influence things and share best practices and so on. The first global association of cities dates back to 1913. In a way, it's been around for some time, but there is no doubt that it has gained a whole lot of momentum and influence in the last few years.
Brian Hanson: This has been a fascinating conversation. I think, this is a world affairs podcast, and I think some of our listeners are going to be very surprised following the themes that this is a conversation about cities. I think you two have both laid out really clearly why cities are important to this, and importantly as you've continued to stress, why cities offer possibilities to address problems, sustained perennial problems in our societies, and cities being involved can create new opportunities and new solutions. Penny Abeywardena, New York City's commissioner for International Affairs, Henri-Paul Normandin, Montreal's director of International Relations, I want to thank you both for being on Deep Dish and really sharing the experience that you have on the front lines of building this new movement of city diplomacy.
Henri-Paul Normandin: Well, thank you very much and thank you Brian to you and to the Chicago Council for your interest in this new form of diplomacy.
Penny Abeywardena: Yes, thank you so much. We really appreciate it.
Brian Hanson: As I noted, both Penny and Henri-Paul will be speaking at the 2019 Pritzker Forum and Global Cities next week in Chicago. You can learn more about the Forum on the Council's website, thechicagocouncil.org. I want to thank you for listening to this episode of Deep Dish on Global Affairs. If you liked the show, do me a favor and tap the subscribe button on your podcast app. You can find our show under Deep Dish on Global Affairs wherever you listen to podcasts. If you think you know someone who would enjoy today's episode, please take a moment to tap the share button and send it to them as well. I'd like to invite you to join our Facebook group, Deep Dish on Global Affairs, where you can ask our guests follow up questions about anything you heard today or submit questions for upcoming guests and episodes. That's Deep Dish on Global Affairs on Facebook. As a reminder, the opinions you've heard today belong to the people who expressed them and not the Chicago Council on Global Affairs. Our audio engineer for this episode is Andy Czarnecki. I'm Brian Hanson, and we'll be back soon with another slice of a dish.